Gwyn Wansbrough

and Robert talk about developing the skill of facilitation and the dynamics of online facilitation. Gwyn is an expert trainer and helps others understand the difference between facilitation and teaching. These are skills that can be learned and the foundation is curiosity.

A little bit about Gwyn...

Virtual facilitator, experience designer, and someone who’s spent thousands of hours on Zoom. Before the pandemic, she spent 10 years leading a global facilitation training organization teaching educators and team leaders how to design & deliver valuable group sessions in person.

Then COVID hit, and I switched my teaching and training over to Zoom. Over the last 2 years, I’ve immersed myself in everything there is to know about virtual facilitation. I’ve trained over 1000 professionals to lead dynamic, engaging virtual sessions that put the joy back into working and learning online. I have had the privilege of working with talented course creators like Billy Broas and (Keystone Accelerator), online learning experts like Andrew Barry, community platforms like Circle, and global organisations like the International Association of Facilitators supporting their members to become exceptional virtual facilitators.

During the pandemic, Gwyn Wansbrough started a weekly newsletter called The Quest to share tips and insights for creating instantly engaging virtual sessions. She run a 6-week cohort-based course called Breakthrough Facilitation for professionals who lead online groups. She is Canadian🇨🇦, based in Barcelona, Spain 🇪🇸.

Check out more of Gwyn


Twitter: /gwynwans

LinkedIn: /in/gwynwansbrough

Subscribe to my newsletter The Quest /newsletter and join the waitlist for the next cohort of my course

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Gwyn Wansbrough
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Show Notes

Robert Peterson 0:33
Welcome to the Add valued entrepreneurs podcast, where we're on a mission to end entrepreneurial unhappiness. If you're an entrepreneur with a burning desire to change the world, this podcast is for you. We're here to help you transform your life in business so you can achieve the freedom and fulfillment you crave. This show is dedicated entrepreneurs who want more of their life, more meaning more purpose and ultimately, more happiness. You deserve it all. And it's possible. I'm your host, Robert Peterson, Pastor turned life coach for business owners. I believe that success without happiness is not true success at all. But there's always hope for those who are willing to take action. Join us every week as we bring you inspire leaders and messages that will help you on your journey towards success. Thank you for investing your time with us today. Let's get started. Our guest today is a virtual facilitator, experienced designer and someone who spent 1000s of hours on Zoom before the pandemic spent 10 years leading a global facilitation training organization, teaching educators and team leaders how to design and deliver valuable group sessions in person. During the pandemic, Gwen want burrow, started a weekly newsletter called The quest to share tips and insights for creating instantly engaging virtual sessions. She runs a six week cohort based course called Breakthrough facilitation for professionals who lead online groups. She's a Canadian based in Barcelona, Spain. Greenwald's row and Robert talk about developing the skill of facilitation and the dynamics of online facilitation. Quinta is an expert trainer and helps others understand the difference between facilitation and teaching. These are skills that can be learned, and the foundation is curiosity. Well, Glenn, thank you so much for joining us today. I'm really excited about this conversation. We've been talking for 10 minutes already, we decided man, we better hit record so the audience can enjoy some of this.

Unknown Speaker 2:40
Well, thanks so much, Robert, for having me on the podcast. I'm really excited for our conversation.

Robert Peterson 2:44
Absolutely. Well, so you mentioned your journey. And I really use the journey of entrepreneurship kind of as the groundwork because everybody's journey is a little unique. And in the journey in that in that growth process of growing ourselves growing our business is really where all the learning kind of happens. And so would you share with us your your entrepreneurial journey? And what's led you to the impact you're making today?

Unknown Speaker 3:10
Great. Yeah. Well, it is fascinating to kind of have a look back on on how you get to where you are right now. So I just crossed the 50 threshold, the 50 year threshold recently, and it kind of brought up all these things like how exactly did I get to where I am today. And when I think back in my family, on my mom's side, they were entrepreneurial. So it was very, they, they they you know, came from the UK to Canada at a time when there were lots of entrepreneurial opportunities. And, and that entrepreneurial streak went straight down several generations. And on my dad's side, they are educators. So there's a long line of teachers and principals. And so I got both genes, I got the entrepreneurial Gene and I got the educator gene. And the other thing that both sides shared was a very strong desire to serve the community. So the entrepreneurial side became philanthropists as well. And the educator side I mean, educators are already you know, in service to, to the community. So, that mix led me into lots of different lots of different ventures lots of different but it was always combining I always I noticed that it always combined the entrepreneurial. So looking for those like innovative ideas, where are the gaps, where can we start something what is needed, what is missing, you know, and where can we kind of move in with the with the education and the very strong The desire to serve.

Robert Peterson 5:06
Nice. Yeah, like I like I obviously that's a that's a powerful combination. Because the ability to educate the ability to, to lift others up is is really a service of of entrepreneurship in many cases.

Unknown Speaker 5:24
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It is that kind of the entrepreneurial kind of mindset of looking for those opportunities somehow, like you say, you know, to make an impact to channel, something that you are very passionate about, and to and to make a difference.

Robert Peterson 5:44
Yeah, I love it. That just that ideas, solving a problem, and many times a problem can simply be that people need need to know.

Unknown Speaker 5:53
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Robert Peterson 5:56
So so let's get into some of the some of the details of your journey. Let's, let's talk about how what's led you to where you are now?

Unknown Speaker 6:04
Yeah. So where I am now is that I saw, I'm a facilitator, I'm an experienced designer, I started an online course called Breakthrough facilitation, it teaches online professionals how to create design and lead, engaging dynamic online experiences. So that would be remote team leaders. It would be people who lead webinars, virtual trainers, but rewind to the beginning of the pandemic, had you told me that I was going to be deep into this world of online facilitation and how you kind of make these online experiences more dynamic and engaging. I would have thought you were crazy. Because rewind just before the pandemic, I was just stepping down from leading a global training organization. And we were working at that time, in 15 countries, we had partner, organizations and affiliates, all over the world, the training, the facilitation training had been translated into eight languages. Every once in a while, we thought, oh, maybe we should do something online. And then we always said, no, no, no, it's way better in person, you can't do online, what you can do in person forget about that. And that was really my life for about 10 years before the pandemic. And we did a lot of remote working together. So I I was very lucky that I found a role that allowed me to actually move and travel. So I live in Barcelona, Spain now, and with that same job I was working from here, you know, mostly remotely, I was working from London, England knows, and, and from other places. So. So that part was all remote. But it was the training that we said, No, there's no you cannot do virtually what you can do in person. So that part has to be done in, in, in person. And, and so the end kind of leading up to that I had discovered this, this, this thing that I didn't know, even existed called facilitation. And I was lucky that I actually I discovered it very early in my career. Because it became a way that not not only something that I did, so I facilitated meetings, I designed the process where a group could get to a better place, you know, through a process of connecting and sharing ideas and being in kind of in a safe space where they could take risks and get to a better place than they could have gotten without a facilitated process. So it's something that I do for a living. But it's also it's also been a mindset that has served me very, very well through all of the different phases of my career. So I've, you know, I led this global training organization for many years. Before that I was working on different different projects, community based projects. Now I'm working I'm I'm kind of a solopreneur right now, running my course. Connecting with people, you know, all over the world on different aspects of the business and the facilitation skills. And that facilitation mindset has been something that I have really appreciated because it's it's a mindset that takes you from needing to control and over manage processes and teams to one in which You are you can kind of, you know, there are times when you need to lead as a leader and make decisions. But in working with teams, that you can be a guide, you know, be that curious person, ask powerful questions. Know, not be afraid of the unknown. So not needing to know, you know, the outcome before you even get there. And that kind of mindset has really served me in a lot of different ways, not only professionally, but also personally, you know, if you have kids, which I know you do, the ability to ask questions and remain curious, you know, as opposed to wanting to your kids just to do everything that you want them to do is that facilitator mindset, again, in just a different context.

Robert Peterson 10:57
No, I really, really appreciate that. Because as a coach, and in coming alongside entrepreneurs, our goal is to draw out the best in them, not tell them what to do. And there are coaches that do that, that, you know, tell people, you need to make these many calls, you need to make this many things you need to do this many things. But that's really managing, like you said, and so I like the facilitation mindset of, of being willing to just be a guide, and, and guiding through questions is, is very powerful. Now, there's many parents that try to guide through questions, and I will admit to, to using manipulation through questions, and, and trying to control the outcome by asking the questions in a certain way to get my kids to, you know, to cooperate. And so I love that you mentioned, you know, not be afraid of the unknown. And, and, and it can't be about manipulation. Obviously, people figure that out, you know, pretty quickly. Yeah, you kind of you kind of mentioned, but I just want to get a specific answer. What, what's the difference between a trainer and a facilitator? Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 12:05
it's a good question. And, and sometimes the categories overlap. So I would consider myself for example, I'm a facilitator, trainer. And that's because I teach people the how to facilitate that's basically what I what I do in my online course, in the online context, a trainer has material that they need to deliver. So it's usually a trainer will be content focused, it will, they will have sort of certain learning outcomes that they will they they will be focused on. They can teach as a trainer, and teaching, you know, if you look at it on a continuum, teaching can also be very facilitative. So this is where it kind of like the the categories aren't necessarily completely distinct. But in it's kind of maybe just an a kind of to one end of the spectrum, a teacher would be just delivering content, a trainer may be delivering content with different tools at their disposal, maybe a little less confined than a than a teacher and a curriculum. A facilitator would be less focused on delivering content, and more focused on the group process. And so for example, that's why facilitators are often brought in for strategic planning. where there isn't, you know, there isn't a learning objective that needs to be achieved. But there needs there there is, you are as a facilitator guiding a group towards an outcome you don't know actually what that outcome necessarily is.

Robert Peterson 14:08
So would you say that my brain saying all facilitators are trainers, but not necessarily all trainers are facilitators?

Unknown Speaker 14:18
That is that I think not all trainers are facilitators. I don't think that all all facilitators are trainers, because in its, there are purists out there in the world, who would say that the train, the facilitators job is never to have their own agenda as to where they want the group to go. Whereas a trainer would trainer, their agenda is to achieve whatever learning outcomes that they're, they're, you know, they want to achieve.

Robert Peterson 14:56
Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. I think the challenge?

Unknown Speaker 15:02
Yeah, no, no, it's good. Because there's also, you know, the role of the coach, the role of the teacher, the role of the trainer, the role of the facilitator, there's often points at which those different skill sets overlap. So, coach, our facilitators, learn a lot from coaches in their ability to hold a non judgmental stance, to ask powerful questions, to listen actively and deeply. And those are skill sets that that a facilitator had, would have in a group context.

Robert Peterson 15:43
And they're really like that, the ability to let go of the outcome is one of the biggest challenges for even even in this entrepreneurial mindset space, where we talk about, you know, manifesting your future in creating this future. But you have to let go of that outcome, and do the process. And it really is about your business really is about the success of your processes. If if if something's not working, it's not the outcome that you want. It's the process that's broken, not the outcome. Right. And, and so many people are holding on to the outcome, and not focused on you know, making changes to the process. We see it all the time. And the best example that most people can relate with his weight loss, because the outcome is weight, they jump on the scale every day. But the scale is an outcome measure. It's not a process. And so if you're not changing your process at all, intentionally, nothing on the scale is going to change no matter how many times you step on it.

Unknown Speaker 16:49
Yes, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And then, in facilitation, we would say also, like, you need to trust the process. And that's a very difficult, it's easy to say, trust the process. And it's very, very what I've found in, in training people in facilitation, particularly people who have had, you know, a large degree of success in their their careers, they've advanced, you know, in their organizations, maybe they're entrepreneurs, maybe they're but, but the hardest, you know, hurdle to cross or not even hardest hurdle to cross, the aha moment that often people have, when they learn, for example, facilitation is that in trying to control the outcome, you actually are setting yourself up for, for less success or even failure, then when you facilitate the process, and you can you foster that connection, you engage with your team members, you are open to, you know, diverse ideas and perspectives, that's when you get the best out of people, that's when you get the best actually out of yourself as well. And it's an aha moment, because our default is to want to control you know, so many of us and I, myself included, and so it is moving through that and realizing, actually, there's another way that is, you know, designing and really, you know, paying attention to the process, that actually takes a lot of the stress off of your shoulders as a leader. Because if you can move into that, then you, you don't necessarily always have to have all the answers. You don't have to, you know, control the agenda, you are moving into the space of guiding rather than having to control.

Robert Peterson 18:55
And it's so challenging, right, especially for an entrepreneur who owns the business, they're the expert in the business, they've hired this staff, and, and they feel like it's their job, as the leader to tell the staff, this is what you need to do. This is how you need to do it, this is what needs to happen. But as the leader, they may not have the best process, and they certainly may not have the best communication. And if they're open to that conversation, and they're open to letting go of this expectation, this outcome and having a conversation that empowers their staff, asking their staff questions, giving their staff the power to, you know, to answer like, Well, how do you think we should do this? What what does it look like when a customer comes in? What is what is this? How should this process work, rather than dictating a process that leads to the outcome that they think they want? Right? It is it is really hard to let go when you're the expert. You're the leader, you're the one that's supposed to know what the bleep He says you do and, and, and yet your staff is the best equipped to know what's really happening because they're the ones that are client facing first. And they're the ones that are that are doing this stuff day to day. And it's challenging sometimes to get leaders to, to let go and and say, Wow, I want to dig into this and, and empower my staff to, to come up with better process.

Unknown Speaker 20:26
Yes, yeah, it's very, very difficult. And the way I like to think about it also is, you know, it's, there are parts of leadership, obviously, were that, that, that require you to make, you know, difficult decisions, to take in what you know, and, and kind of make a call. But, I the way that I see facilitation, it's like a hat that you can wear, you know, that, that in certain areas of your, of your leadership, it is something that you can kind of put on, and take off in a way. So it's, you know, it sounds like, oh, well, you know, if I became a facilitated leader, you know, I'd be kind of in the background, and no decisions would be making would be made and all this stuff. But there are, there are ways of combining all of these different, these different skill sets to get you to that better, better outcome.

Robert Peterson 21:33
Absolutely. Well, in recognizing that, you're right, you can't be the facilitator all the time, because we're, if we're manipulating the process constantly, then then we're not going to focus and have a good test of what the process really looks like. And so there has to be, hey, let's, let's, let's run the process, and then team evaluate the process and make changes. But then we've got to let it run again. And the leaders job is ultimately making sure that the team is doing the process the way that we we've agreed to, but when the team has buy in, and the team has participated in creating the process, they're far more likely to execute it.

Unknown Speaker 22:15
Absolutely, yeah. They, they feel ownership, they feel buy in, they feel empowered. And, and that is, you know, a team that will want that the best outcome.

Robert Peterson 22:30
Well, and because we've let go of the outcome, now we're focused on the process, tweaking the process, the outcomes can actually exceed expectations. Because, right, because the process is really what creates outcomes. And when when we tweak the process, outcomes improve.

Unknown Speaker 22:49
Yes, yeah, absolutely.

Robert Peterson 22:51
Yeah. So crazy, we have to let go to an end up getting, you know, more than what we expected, which is, you know, we're before you, you focus on the process, you're so caught up in that, this outcome you need to happen, and it almost feels impossible, but we're gonna we're gonna make it happen. And when you let go of that, it exceeds everything that you expected. And more. Yeah, it's just, it's crazy. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 23:20
And it's, it's a scary, I mean, I've been there myself after having kind of launched, you know, several different projects and ventures, and it's, it's scary, you know, it's scary to, to, to kind of not relinquish the control, but be in a space where you may not be in control of the outcome. And that, that comfort with the unknown is something that I find also, especially with entrepreneurs, because their business is almost like, their child, you know, and you all have those almost like parental instincts come into play, where you want to protect, you know, and you want the child to succeed and you want so badly. But actually, that, that being able to, to trust the process and, and be comfortable with the unknown is actually what you know, like you said, will get you to, it might even be a surprising outcome. You know, that you did not, you did not expect but that's fascinating.

Robert Peterson 24:38
We will be right back after the short break. Are you an entrepreneur who started their business with purpose and passion, only to lose sight of it amidst the daily grind? We understand how frustrating that can be. That's why we're offering free strategy calls to help you gain clarity on the barriers holding you back from achieving your dreams. In just 30 minutes. Our experienced coaches will work do identify obstacles and develop strategies for overcoming them. There's no commitment or pressure, just a chance to get some assistance and clarity, unique. Scheduling is easy, simply visit smiling and select a time that works for you. Let's jump on a call and build your business together, it's time for you to add value, and achieve your full potential as an entrepreneur. Welcome back, let's get back to more great. Well, I think about, you know, a parent that gets caught up in controlling the outcome is a parent that ends up doing their kids homework, instead of the outcome, and allowing the child to do their own homework. And, and knowing that the outcome is going to be based on the child's own performance. And that's exactly it. And yet, I've seen parents that have gone to that extreme, where they, they want to control the outcome just to make sure that but ultimately, you're hurting the child and yourself. And it's, it's crazy how we can get caught up in in the wrong the wrong number, right the wrong measure. And entrepreneurs are definitely guilty of, of measuring the wrong thing. Like, right now, obviously, social media is a big thing and get if you get caught up in likes and follows and likes and follows. And that doesn't necessarily equate to clients served and but people can get caught up in this whirlwind of the wrong thing, and measuring the wrong thing. And many times it's looking at the wrong outcome. And so that's another reason why evaluating your process is so important, especially if you can involve others in and you can have others, you know, as solopreneurs it's a challenge, because we don't always have someone to ask us that tough question. You know, well, hey, you're measuring these things, but do they matter? Are they getting you where you want to go?

Unknown Speaker 27:05
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Good

Robert Peterson 27:07
stuff. All right. So we talked a little bit before we got started about travel about your experience. So I want to ask you first, just what has travel allowed you culturally? And how has that impacted? Who you are as a business person?

Unknown Speaker 27:29
Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I was one of those kids who sat down with the map with the big National Geographic huge books when I was little. And I just studied the map. And my dad was a member of a club that was a club of businessmen. And it still exists. It's called the road your Rotary International. And it exists in chapters all over the world. And so we were you know, I grew up in this like kind of medium, mid sized Canadian city. And we would have these exchange students who came from all over the world through the Rotary Club because my dad was a Rotarian. And we had, you know, this guy from Australia, we had a woman from Hong Kong, we had a, another woman from Denmark. And I was just fascinated by every single person who came through this exchange program as as a youngster. And I always knew that I wanted there that my career would have some international component to it. And luckily, I did, I've had jobs where I have been able to live in other countries. So I've, you know, I think we were talking before the the podcast, I lived in Colombia for Colombia, South America for for several years, and my husband's Colombian, so we moved there, and I had that experience and worked and live there. I've worked and lived in the States, I've worked and lived in Canada, I've worked and lived in Mexico and the UK. And now we've been living in Spain for for eight years. And I think when I look at and then I also was, you know, working with this organization for 10 years, the global organization and traveled a lot with that with that particular role. And one of the things that it does, it just gives you a much wider perspective of have have different ways of thinking you know, different societies and cultures approach things in such different ways. So for example, in in, in Colombia, you know, people are very relational. So the relationship that you have with somebody is very important in whatever you want to do professionally with them as well. And Um, and that coming from a, you know, more of an Anglo Saxon background and, you know, which is maybe more transactional in a way was a big learning, you know, for, for me. So that's, that was that was one thing I think you'll learn to, to I've learned to find ways to connect with people in and to be curious to maintain my curiosity about, about people who I meet and who I work with. And so for example, you know, when we moved to the UK, I just didn't even think that there was really going to be a big cultural difference. While there certainly was, it was very different candidate working in, you know, in the context of Canada, and then working in the UK, where I would say it was kind of the opposite of Colombia, very formal, very down to business, a little bit dry, you know, but then afterwards, you know, going to the pub, and everyone kind of let their hair down. And, and so it's been just a fascinating, you know, fascinating opportunity to, to, to learn about, like how people relate to each other how people work, how people get things done. And a lot of that has now the work that I do now, and the online course, and the online facilitation work I do now really reflects that. All of that input that I have had over over the years, in terms of, of, of being able to create, being aware, I guess, this is what I'm trying to say is like being aware of my what my own bias biases and my own perspectives are and challenging those from different from these different perspectives.

Robert Peterson 32:14
That's so good. Alright, so let's get on the personal side a little bit. So what is how has that impacted raising a family?

Unknown Speaker 32:22
Well, we're a bicultural family. So we've got my husband's Colombian, I'm Canadian. Sometimes people look at us and say, How on earth does that even work? That two cultures are very, very different. And yet, so our kids have grown up in my son was born in Colombia, my daughter was born in Canada, they grew up in the UK, and they did High School in Spain. And now they're both ones in Canada University and the other ones in that in the UK university. So we're now this geographically dispersed family. But I think for, for us as a family, because we moved around so much. It was also very interesting at many different points in our parenting lives, to try to reconcile the differences on Canada, in Colombia, you sit down with a child with a toddler, and you make sure that they eat everything that they have been given in Canada, you put the food in front of the child, and the child decides what they want to, to eat. And it's just very, very different kinds of approaches to, to parenting, but I hope, you know, what it has given to my kids and having lived in these different places. There's always a concern that you kind of just uproot, you know, kids, and they may, you know, they might find it difficult to find, you know, where they consider home, who are they the issues around identity? Are they Colombian or the Canadian? Are they, you know, who are they exactly? And what is their what are their points of reference, but I do hope, you know, after now in adulthood, they find a way of leveraging, you know, the experiences that they've had the ways in which I know that it's made them more open minded, more, you know, and very curious about the world around them. And, and hopefully, you know, embrace that side of them.

Robert Peterson 34:36
Absolutely. I think one of the challenges in for us traveling in a similar way, everybody always asked how do your kids handle it? And what people don't understand is our kids don't know any different. So our kids didn't realize that not everybody did what we did. And so, I think, you know, the period of time after we were back in the United States So, for our kids was really, that was the wake up of realizing, Wait, not everybody else does it this way. And, and, and they both, both our kids went through that period of feeling. They're not Colombian, they were never Colombian. But they're not American, because they spent the first you know, 10 years of 12 years of their lives someplace else. And so not necessarily feeling like they belong in this place that they belong in that place. But what my wife and I always made sure was that home was a safe place. And so they knew wherever mom and dad are, that's, that's home, whether that's whether that's a Bogota, whether that's in Denver, and, and I think that's, that's helped, I think both our kids have a different spirit. Like, it's interesting, my son's engaged, and his future wife's family has never traveled like, across states is the furthest they've gone. And they took a flight to visit the state and, and my son is they have no idea how to travel or how to, and all of those things. Like literally, he was three months old on his for he took his first international flight at three months old, and has been flying back and forth, you know, in trout, just regular more regularly than most. And so he has an airplane, he has an airport mode, like he, he gets to an airport, and he functions in airport mode. And, and his fiance's family doesn't, doesn't have that. So his his learning curve was was how do I let go of my airport mode, to to adjust to they're not airport mode. And interesting to both both our kids have, you know, grew up in Colombia, but they both been able to travel to Africa and see true poverty see true, completely different lifestyles, and, and I think, are my hope, because I think at the time, they appreciate it, but but it doesn't, it doesn't set inside, but now that they're they're adults and starting to start their own lives, that those those things will reflect in their character of how they treat other human beings and their intention of the impact they want to make in the world will be affected by the things they've seen in experience that the majority of people haven't. And so like you I feel blessed that, that my family was able to experience different cultures and different places. And, and appreciate them like we've we've always, you know, people always ask us, Well, what's your favorite place? Like, gosh, I there's been there's audio, there's places I've seen that are amazing. But but for the most part, every country I've traveled to the people are just amazing and fascinating. And I could, I could never pick a favorite obviously, we love Colombia because we live there the longest. But the truth is that the people are amazing everywhere that we've been blessed to visit and, and that's what's so great about humanity is the smile, no matter what language people speak, the smile, and eyes and hugs are still universal language.

Unknown Speaker 38:11
That's right, yeah, there is there is at once you have lived and worked and, you know, traveled over overseas, you you there's no doubt that there is something that Bond's us as human beings, you know, across cultures across, across, across differences. And, and, and it's in meeting people, you know, putting a face to two people and your kids and my kids will have had that experience of, of actually making, you know, friends who are from a completely different culture than they are. And you learn things from them, and they learn things from you. And, and so it is that kind of Yeah, it is it that in itself is kind of also a mindset, you know, when you are into, you know, you're in contact with people who are different from yourself. And you, you you, you know, connect in a way that that is on a very human level.

Robert Peterson 39:18
And I think the biggest piece in looking at the world today, I think people are trying to take our differences and use them against each other rather than honor our differences. And that goes back to facilitation, the power of curiosity, right? If somebody has a different faith or somebody has a different background, approaching it with curiosity rather than judgment allows conversation versus, you know, what our culture is, is doing today in social media and in regular media and in the stories we tell and of course, it's all being amplified by politics is this idea that that one group is better or different than these others. And so yeah, and the minute we do that the minute we categorize any human, as less valuable because of their choices, because of their place of birth, because of all of those things that make us unique. The minute we categorize and try to devalue somebody, we've, we've stepped into a place. That's just not, it's wrong. Yeah. And, and until enough, people recognize that and start to rise up and say, Wait a minute, you're a human being, I'm a human being, it's irrelevant where we're born. It's, and yes, there are choices that people make that, that have consequences, and in those consequences, you know, criminal and those things. But but the majority, the largest majority of human beings are, are simply trying to live their lives and trying to take care of their families. And when we can involve each other, in recognize that for me, I, I think that's, I mean, that's what add value to Life stands for is adding value to other human beings lifting them up elevating every single one. And that starts by eliminating categories. Obviously, I can't take away that I was born in the United States and my friends in Colombia were born in Colombia. But I can take away the judgment of that, that the idea that my being born in the United States makes me more valuable than them or being more valuable than my friends in Uganda and Kenyan. And it's, and it's crazy. I mean, it's just an obviously, it's, there's a human nature side of that, that causes some of that. But the discrimination is really about judgment, rather than acceptance. And I think curiosity is that same power that you use in facilitation, it's the same power that's necessary for humans, when we travel, to be curious about other cultures and want to embrace the differences. And when you do it from a place of trying to understand them, not to manipulate or change them, just to learn, and it will be so fun. I don't know why we would do it any other way. Because that's, that just gives so much opportunity, everywhere you go. There's, there's people that you can learn about.

Unknown Speaker 42:23
Yeah, no, absolutely. And that is one of the things that I appreciate about facilitation is, you know, it is that curiosity, it's creating, you know, a safe or a safer space, where people can express express themselves without that fear of being, you know, ridiculed, or judged. And when you can get to that place of, you know, creating this, this safe container for, you know, kind of this group process which we call in facilitation and get all voices heard. So it's, it's, it's always surprising to me how little awareness sometimes we have of like meetings where just one person talks the whole time. And it's whoever talks who's ever more comfortable, most comfortable talking in a space gets the most airplay. And what I really appreciate about Phil's facilitation is that there are ways of designing that process where you ensure that every single voice is heard. And whether you're an introvert or extrovert, whether you are, you know, more shy about bringing your ideas forward, whether you are traditionally not included in conversations, that is what facilitation opens up. And it's like it's unleashes this this this energy, you know, that we have as a human species to be able to really fully like, see and hear each other. And you know, if you want to really go there love each other as well, you know, but Well, I

Robert Peterson 44:11
think that's so powerful because that, that can eliminate the narcissist narcissists rise to leadership because they're willing to speak up and then they get the AirPlay. And then everybody looks at him like, oh, no, they know what they're doing. Oh, they know what they're talking about. In the majority of the time, of course, they don't they just sound that way. And when they're allowed when they're allowed to run amok they take over and and so that's typically why they rise to leadership, it's typically why they get into positions of power, which just reinforces their their own behavior. And, and obviously, we've, you it doesn't take long to look at corporate America and see where where these things have happened. It doesn't take long to look at politics and to see where narcissists have risen. To the top, and like you said, the voice is that the introvert who has great ideas, sits in the corner and thinks they're not valuable. And the truth is, when everybody's voice is heard, the whole group rises. And the whole group can improve. And, and leaders, leaders that facilitate will become those that are more appreciated.

Unknown Speaker 45:24
Yeah. And that, and that comes down to also just a level of self awareness, you know, for us as leaders and entrepreneurs, that developing that self awareness about how, you know, how much are we controlling a process? How much are like an outcome? How much are we hearing our own voices at the expense of others? Having that, that, you know, where are our blind spots? Which is, which is also a very scary place for people to go, but it is, in that I think it was Joseph Campbell is that is in that dark cave, where you will find it out the the answers that you're looking for. And, and so having that self awareness, you know, of things that you can do as a leader, to open the field, you know, of connection, of exchange of ideas of diverse perspectives, is where really, I think that's, that's, you know, you look at successful leaders, like, you know, pick your leader, but is where a lot of people have that, you know, that magnetism that people want to be in their company, because it's a good feeling, you know, when you are people feel fulfilled when they feel seen and heard.

Robert Peterson 46:54
Absolutely. All right, when our entrepreneurs have been listening for for 40 minutes, and you want to leave them with gwynn's Words of Wisdom, what would you share?

Unknown Speaker 47:04
Whoa, well, I think it would go be be going back to trust the process, trust the process, the process of, you know, of, of challenging yourself to become a better a better leader, a better person, trust the process, in, in, in the way that you work with your teams. And, and open up this, this kind of larger field of of connection and success and impact that you can have.

Robert Peterson 47:43
Glenn, thank you so much for joining me what a wonderful conversation and I've learned a lot about facilitation and the the impact that it can have. And so glad that more and more people are teaching that out there. And so in the shownotes, people will be able to find your website and where to find you and connect with you. And so look forward to future collaborations.

Unknown Speaker 48:05
Fantastic. Thanks so much, Robert. I really appreciate the work that you're doing in this space.

Robert Peterson 48:14
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